This is the initial letter that started this debate.Hi all,
When you get a chance, please check out this site http://home.dtnhome.com/~poemphos/ Please let us know what you think about our poetry and "Slay The Serpent Ministries." Some favorite poems are: "Hell", "Satan's Puppets", and "The Devil's Band". Please pass our web address on so others can read it as well.
Thanks and God bless,
Mitch
This is a reply that I received. From here on, each individual email is separated by a line break (all of my responses are in black).
Something I will recommend to you, taking your faith and believing in yourself before any supposed God. Here's a little poem for you:
What was it again?
Who was i to defend,
beliefs I couldn't believe.
When the only one fooled,
is the easiest decieved.Once I found myself,
trapped between these lies.
Caught inside religion,
hoplessness disguised.I tried to find hope,
in life eternally.
Logically concluding,
it's imposssible to be.Finding strength to be free.
building my integrity,
prompted me to believe,
that I can believe in me.
Let me first apologize. I thought that the list of people I was sending my web address to were all Christians. I was wrong, and I am sorry. However, I would still like to reply to your recommendation to me.
As far as having "faith in me": My Grandmother is in the hospital even as I type this letter. She is highly dependent upon people helping her as her mind tends to be coming and going. If she were left to herself, death would be inevitable as she could not care for herself. No amount of faith in herself can help her. As her mind goes she is unable to even conceive the idea of having faith in herself... Now, let's scroll back eighty-three years to the day that she was born. What if her mother, father, etc. had said "We'll let this newborn baby fend for herself; if she lives, she lives." Left all to herself, death would have, once again, been inevitable. The same truth applies to you and to me. We have been, are, and in the future will be dependent upon others.
As far as I am concerned, I realize that I've let people down. On many, many occasions I have let myself down, and I will do it again because I am not perfect. Faith in me? Am I self sufficient? Could I survive if there wasn't any water to drink? No food to eat? No air to breathe? Is faith in me, enough? If each person in this world were to turn his or her back on me, is faith in me enough? If no one would rent to me, or sale me land, or a home; If I couldn't go to any grocery stores where produce is provided by the hands of others; if I was forbidden to buy gasoline from all gas stations; If no one would employee me and everyone refused to purchase things that I might try to sale or do for money, and the government would not assist me either, could I survive? If the gas company and/or electric company refused me services, and even the doctors and hospital when I got sick, and if those who enforce the law would not support or protect me, would just faith in myself be enough? If I was totally isolated from all dealings with everyone in this world would faith in myself be enough? Think deeply on this. The truth is that you are more dependent upon others than you can even imagine; and if you do not believe that, then refuse the assistance of all the above and see how far you go. Cut off contact with absolutely everyone and everything and depend totally upon yourself to meet all your needs. Think of the fear and the loneliness you would experience if you were forced to prove your belief. Ultimately, can your faith in yourself keep you from dying? The answer is No. You will join the many who are taking their last breath even at this very moment. The question is: What then? Can you prove it?
I tried living my way and thought I was doing a good job at it. But my "delusions of grandeur" came to an abrupt end as I was forced to deal with painful circumstances that were beyond my control. My faith in myself had failed. That's why I wrote "Saved at Sea" http://members.truevine.net/poemphos/poems/savedatsea.htm. This happened eight years ago and during that time I gave my life to Jesus Christ. I found out that all those who claimed to be Christians, those who truly praised and loved God as evidenced by the lives that they lived, were right and I had been wrong in my beliefs. And now, I would not turn from Jesus (even if I could) as that would be complete foolishness on my part. Do you think I wrote all those poems about Him because He has failed me or made me unhappy? He is Awesome! And I praise Him for what He has done for me. And you would try to tell me to put faith in myself? No, I think I'll stick with God.
Obviously, as your recommendation to me acknowledges, you have never met Jesus. Perhaps you have met those who claim to be Christians, perhaps you have done the Church thing and never found anything in it that satisfied you. But, you haven't met Jesus. He is real, and you cannot prove (just because you haven't met Him) that Jesus does not exist anymore than you can prove that I do not exist. God is, and He alone is, self sufficient. He does not have to prove Himself to anyone, nor does He feel obligated to. Can you imagine what the Almighty God must think when He hears His creation declare with their tiny little tongues that He isn't real? There is nothing that sounds more foolish to His ears (see Psalms 53:1).
What is awesome is that the King of the Universe would give us an opportunity to know Him and to even be called His children. And you can know Him if you truly desire to. Jesus said, "And I say to you, ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it shall be opened" Luke 11:9-10. Let me ask you a question. If you could Know the truth about God, even if it meant that you would be wrong in all that you now believe... would you want to know the truth so that you could turn to Him? On the answer (honest) to that question everything rests.
Please visit these pages. http://members.truevine.net/poemphos/thecross.htm http://members.truevine.net/poemphos/stsministries/goodnews.htm
Thanks,
Mitch
I wasn't expecting a well thought-out response like this, generally I just get the "if you don't believe you're gonna go to hell" response.
First let me say that your poetry is beautifully written. Being a poet myself, good writing is hard to come across, I however, do not agree with the majority of the subject matter. First let me redefine the point I was trying to make. My recommendation was to believe in yourself, your abilities to solve problem, work towards goals. I find it to be a cop-out when people start to struggle, and just fall back on this "God" that they believe cares so much for them. For some people it works, it makes them feel like they a part of something bigger, but those are the same people who would be lost without some kind of leader telling them what to believe. I'm not a sheep, unfortunately too many others are. Having faith in yourself wouldn't mean being completely pig-headed and never asking for help; simply knowing that you have power within yourself.
You suggest that I've never "met" Jesus. Let me give you a little personal history. I have never actually met Jesus, and I sincerely doubt that you have, but I'm assuming that you don't mean that literally. I was raised in a Christian home. Both of my parents strongly believe in God and being saved through Jesus, etc. I was raised Christian, and I swallowed it all down for until about the time I hit High School. It wasn't until then that I realized that not everyone believed what I did. Some of my friends didn't believe in God, and I couldn't understand why. It seemed so clear to me, how come they didn't see the power of "God" and faith in him... It was then that I started to read about other people's beliefs. From The Book of Mormon to the Satanic Bible, I read on just about every religion I could find. I did find one common theme through them all, the power of faith. In some religions, it wasn't necessarily faith in a higher power, just faith in general.
Have you ever been hypnotized? I think it's very hard to see the true power of the mind without having ever truly experienced it. I was hypnotized once by my girlfriend's mother (she's a hypnotherapist). One of the things she had me do was hold out my arm (my left arm, and I'm right-handed). She told me about how my arm was solid, unbreakable, wouldn't bend. Then she put one of her hands on my forearm, and the other on my wrist, and held herself up on my arm. So there I was, holding a 150 pound woman up in the air, with my left arm. After she un-hypnotized me (I don't know if that's the correct terminology), she had me hold out my arm again. Told me to keep it straight and hold it up with all my strength. With one hand, she pushed my arm down.
I thought about this for quite some time. I had the strength to hold her up, so why couldn't I do it without being hypnotized? The more I thought about it, I realized that even though I could do it, I didn't have enough faith in myself to do it. The power of faith had become very real to me. However, my version of faith is completely different than yours. I believe in the power of the mind, the human spirit, you direct your faith towards a God. I won't tell you you're wrong, because that's what some people need, but I know that my faith is just as powerful as yours.
I'll leave you with my favorite verse of the Bible (taken completely out of context, because that's what people do when they only quote one or two verses):
Ecclesiates 10:19 Feasts are made for laughter, and wine makes life merry; but money is the answer for everything.
Hi ****,
Thanks for having the courtesy to write back to me. And I really appreciate the kind words about my poetry.
I certainly believe that God intends for us to have a certain amount of faith in our abilities as long as we realize ultimately who gave us those abilities. But even those abilities we have now can in time fade away. Like the example I gave you about my grandmother. I have complete faith in myself that I can take a fork, stick it into a piece of meat and place the meat into my mouth; yet I watched my grandmother this past Sunday struggle to even stick the meat, and when she had finally got it and was raising it to her mouth the piece of meat would often fall off the fork and into her lap. Something she used to have thought nothing about is now a major task for her; one she often fails to accomplish.
Faith in general is useless unless the person or thing that you are putting your faith in is able to deliver. I have faith that a plane can fly me to another city and most likely get me there safely. But even if I had complete faith that I could climb to a top of a building and fly there myself, my faith in myself would be useless as I would fail to deliver. As far as your experience with supporting your girlfriend's mother on your arm, it is because you had strength that you were unaware of to do it. Perhaps we all do. But you must recognize that there is certainly a limit to the weight that you could support even while being hypnotized. The feat you performed was because it was within your "unknown" capacity to perform it; but what if she had asked you to fly to the top of a tree?
I consider myself to be (on a human scale) reasonably intelligent. But I have to realize that this Universe we live in is (as we know it) infinitely large and very complex. What we know about it is, at best, microscopic compared to what we do not know. And on that scale I must realize that I am not that intelligent at all. It would be foolish to put faith in anything that extends beyond what we know, those things which we cannot perceive with our five senses (taste, touch, smell, sight, hearing). That is unless we had a sixth sense, and that is what the Faith that the Bible refers to is. But it does not come from us; it comes from God as He distributes it. That is how I know Jesus, not through the five senses that we have as humans but in a much deeper way, the only way that you truly can; through the Faith that He has given to me. That is what the Bible is talking about when it says, "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, and which have not entered the heart of man, all that God has prepared for those who love Him. For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ" 1 Corinthians 2:9-16.
Have a nice day,
Mitch
Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but things at work have been quite hectic lately.
This is where I completely disagree with you. My abilities were not given to me, I worked hard, and spent a lot of time learning and exploring new things and ideas. My ability to skateboard, snowboard, fix computers, write poetry, type, speak, etc. were not given to me, they were all learned. Even if your God had created me, he certainly was not the one teaching me these things.
My faith in my abilities comes from my personal experience. Obviously, if someone/thing has failed me in the past, I would have little faith in it. I talk about my ideas of faith, and you seem to have a more "blind faith" approach. I find it very difficult to believe in something, just because. Benjamin Franklin said, "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Putting faith in something whose existence is completely circumstantial is blind faith, believing in it just to believe. People will talk about how they felt God had done this or that. I remember when I used to go to church, people would share their experiences with God. Every story either began or ended with "I think that God..." or "I feel that God..." or "I believe that God..." To me it seemed like they were trying to convince themselves more than me. When all the people around you share your beliefs, its easy to keep believing in even the most bizarre things.
Weird things have happened in my life, some I can explain, others I can't. But just because I can't explain it doesn't mean it was an act of God. People don't give themselves enough credit. Hard times hit, and people start to pray and ask God for guidance and help. What people don't realize, that by "talking" with God, all they're really doing is sorting things out in their head. Focusing on the pressing issues, allowing them to concentrate and find solutions to their problems. When many people come together with one purpose , I believe there is power behind that, not because of the presence of God, but because people have focused their faith into a common problem.
To answer your question. If she had asked me to fly into a tree, I doubt that I would've been able to. Even deep inside my sub-conscious, knowing that no one has ever flown without some kind of mechanical assistance would leave enough doubt in the back of my mind where I could never fly. However, I won't say its impossible, and besides, doesn't the Bible say through faith in God all things are possible?
I've also noticed that all the scriptue you've quoted to me has been from the New Testament, is there a specific reason for that? (just curious)
Hi ****,
I broke your last letter down to make it easier to respond to. My comments are in black.
Thanks,
Mitch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is where I completely disagree with you. My abilities were not given to me, I worked hard, and spent a lot of time learning and exploring new things and ideas. My ability to skateboard, snowboard, fix computers, write poetry, type, speak, etc. were not given to me, they were all learned. Even if your God had created me, he certainly was not the one teaching me these things.
Near to where I live there is a group of people called "Travelers" (One of the news shows did a special on them some time ago). These people make their living by traveling to other states at certain times of the year and swindling people, usually the elderly, out of money. They are extremely good at it. This world is full of people who kill, steal, deceive, and manipulate others. The question is: Does God give these people the ability (physical and mental capacity) to do these things? The answer is yes. Is this how God intends for them to use their God given abilities? Absolutely not!
The things that you have mentioned above are achievements you have made by using your God given abilities. I believe that I have the ability (mental capacity) to learn trigonometry, but I haven't made that accomplishment because I haven't tried. The mighty oak tree can say, "Look how big and strong I am." But without the acorn the oak tree would have no potential at all; and without the body, soul, and mind that God has given you, you wouldn’t either. "For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb" Psalms 139:13.
My faith in my abilities comes from my personal experience. Obviously, if someone/thing has failed me in the past, I would have little faith in it.
If you are referring to God failing you, I must ask you…What have you done for Him? Please don't respond that you have tried to live a good life; He tells us in Isaiah 64:6 that "all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment." If you were referring to God failing you, He hasn't. The offer to you for eternal salvation is as real at this moment as it ever was; and if you die without receiving His grace it is because you chose to try it your way instead of His.
This is where humanity has everything backwards. God has never failed anyone; we have failed Him. Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." People live daily outside the will of God (sin), doing things their own way (sin), putting themselves on the throne of their life instead of the God who gave them the very life that animates their bodies (sin), and then when tragedy strikes and they find out how helpless they really are, they either blame God, or claim not to believe in Him because He didn't do anything about it. On one hand they don't want a God, who desires a personal relationship with them, meddling in their business, and on the other hand they blame Him for His absence during their time of need. Make no mistake about it, God does allow those who reject Him to live in their sin, and there are always consequences for sin. Ultimately it brings death (Romans 6:23); but it also brings trouble during life as well. "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal life" Galatians 6:7-8.
I talk about my ideas of faith, and you seem to have a more "blind faith" approach. I find it very difficult to believe in something, just because. Benjamin Franklin said, "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Putting faith in something whose existence is completely circumstantial is blind faith, believing in it just to believe.
You can explain to a blind man what the world looks like, but he will never truly understand unless his eyes are opened and he sees it for himself. Being blind to something doesn't mean that it isn't real, only that the blind person can not, or does not see it. The faith I have in God is not a blind faith; the reason it appears that way to you is because you are unable to see it. And as long as you focus on "you" then "you" will be the very thing that keeps you from seeing God. It is like looking into a window and seeing your reflection, if you continue to focus on your own reflection then you will miss all that you could have seen outside of the window.
People will talk about how they felt God had done this or that. I remember when I used to go to church, people would share their experiences with God. Every story either began or ended with "I think that God..." or "I feel that God..." or "I believe that God..."
My relationship with Jesus Christ, just like all other genuine Christians, is a personal, ever growing relationship. It is comparable to a marriage in which you grow to know your spouse better as time goes on. I have been married to my wife for over six years and at times when people ask me a question about her I might still say "I think that she..." or "I feel that she..." or "I believe that she..." Just because I don’t know completely how she may feel about something does not make her any less real; It just shows that I don’t know her as well as I could, and in time will.
To answer your question. If she had asked me to fly into a tree, I doubt that I would've been able to. Even deep inside my sub-conscious, knowing that no one has ever flown without some kind of mechanical assistance would leave enough doubt in the back of my mind where I could never fly. However, I won't say its impossible, and besides, doesn't the Bible say through faith in God all things are possible?
Yes the Bible does say that. But are you talking about faith in God, or faith in yourself? His power, or yours?
I've also noticed that all the scripture you've quoted to me has been from the New Testament, is there a specific reason for that? (just curious)
No. I was just using scriptures that came to mind...Talk to you later.
I received no reply.
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